well LS motors are alot of money and fabrication i think we are putting the 406 from the chevelle in my wifes camaro and biulding another motor for the chevelle. I am looking to go low to mid 10s with a sbc i dont mind using nitrous. I would like to use a stock block with streetable compression i will still drive it some on the street so pump gas is a must i am on a budget i do understand fast and budget dont really go together but i know there are some nice 383s and 406s out there running well. I will run a forged rotating assembly and aluminum heads i like darts real well but open to sugestions. Does anybody have suggestions on what sbc could be biult the cheapest and most reliable to reach my goal.
67chevelle406
Kevin
This is my goal at some point as well.
I think in a chevelle it is about weight with a SBC.
Maybe get it as light as possible with keeping the stock look.
How much NOS? I can see a 200 shot doing the job...
Do you have E85 up there? That would be even easier!!
I think a aftermarket block is really needed for what you are doing.
I'm going to say if you use 93 octane...you are going to have to use 11 to 1 compression, a 215 to 220 head, and a big cam...like 260 to 270 @ .050.
4:10 gears at less...probably 4:33's and or 4:56's
28 inch tire..
5000 stall....
This is my goal at some point as well.
I think in a chevelle it is about weight with a SBC.
Maybe get it as light as possible with keeping the stock look.
How much NOS? I can see a 200 shot doing the job...
Do you have E85 up there? That would be even easier!!
I think a aftermarket block is really needed for what you are doing.
I'm going to say if you use 93 octane...you are going to have to use 11 to 1 compression, a 215 to 220 head, and a big cam...like 260 to 270 @ .050.
4:10 gears at less...probably 4:33's and or 4:56's
28 inch tire..
5000 stall....
What is your budget? will it be driven on the street alot? you can make it run that fast N/A at that weight but it will probably be way over budget, IMO hit it with a shot
you could look at the combo "sheetmetal" has, he runs 10.00 natrually aspirated with the ported old afr 195s, but i think he weighs less than you.
If you get the combo right it can be done on a budget, my 3200lb nova runs the equivilant of high 10s in the 1/4 with a flat tappet cam and brodix ik200 heads that only flow 260cfm and 176cfm.
with a great set of heads and a nice solid roller you can get it done on a budget, but the combo has to be perfect, the heads i would reccomend for this are the afr 220 heads, they use all standard stuff and flow something like 320cfm, and the cam should probably be a custom grind.
you could look at the combo "sheetmetal" has, he runs 10.00 natrually aspirated with the ported old afr 195s, but i think he weighs less than you.
If you get the combo right it can be done on a budget, my 3200lb nova runs the equivilant of high 10s in the 1/4 with a flat tappet cam and brodix ik200 heads that only flow 260cfm and 176cfm.
with a great set of heads and a nice solid roller you can get it done on a budget, but the combo has to be perfect, the heads i would reccomend for this are the afr 220 heads, they use all standard stuff and flow something like 320cfm, and the cam should probably be a custom grind.
Maybe look into buying a used Procharger? Boost makes everything easier. A fairly mild 383sbc with a D1sc Procharger, blow through carb and a little hydro roller would go bottom 10's on pump and probably mid 9's on race fuel assuming you get the rest of the combo right. It has been my experience that boost makes everything easier. Not to mention that a low 10 second sbc is not going to be very street friendly in N/A form. A boosted sbc would drive like a Camry and knock down 10's with a plug wire pulled...JMHO.
I am hoping to run 11.30's N/A and high 9's on a 225 shot. I will be taking it to the track Saturday for the first time with this motor. Here is the combo.
Forged 406 short block (studded 2 bolt main)
Professionally Ported Brodix 200cc Race-Rite (The Competition Ported AFR210's are very similar to these)
Comp Cams XR300HR
Super Victor Intake
850 holley dp
My Chevelle weighs 3750 with me in it. It has a Th400 and a Moser 12bolt with 4.11 gears. It spanked an uncles high 11 second Camaro by over 4 car lengths so it should easily be mid 11's on motor.
This motor drives like a dream. Ton of low end pull while holding power up to about 6500. I drove the car with 3.08 gears for a while before the 4.11's and it drives great with both. Here is little video of how it runs.
Forged 406 short block (studded 2 bolt main)
Professionally Ported Brodix 200cc Race-Rite (The Competition Ported AFR210's are very similar to these)
Comp Cams XR300HR
Super Victor Intake
850 holley dp
My Chevelle weighs 3750 with me in it. It has a Th400 and a Moser 12bolt with 4.11 gears. It spanked an uncles high 11 second Camaro by over 4 car lengths so it should easily be mid 11's on motor.
This motor drives like a dream. Ton of low end pull while holding power up to about 6500. I drove the car with 3.08 gears for a while before the 4.11's and it drives great with both. Here is little video of how it runs.
Kevin
You were looking for a 11.99 just about a week ago, now you are looking for 10's wow!!!
If you are going to use a considerable amount of spray (200+) I would use an aftermarket block, crank, etc etc,,,,,
Building a street small block to run mid 11's is obtainable, hell with a bit of work you already got that!!!!
But spraying it 200+ to run your 10 second goal its not going to be that reliable with the stock stuff.
Dave
You were looking for a 11.99 just about a week ago, now you are looking for 10's wow!!!
If you are going to use a considerable amount of spray (200+) I would use an aftermarket block, crank, etc etc,,,,,
Building a street small block to run mid 11's is obtainable, hell with a bit of work you already got that!!!!
But spraying it 200+ to run your 10 second goal its not going to be that reliable with the stock stuff.
Dave
I would build a 383 with flat tops and 64 cc heads. Profiler 210s is what i would run. roller cam low to mid 250s @50 on a 108. block should be fine. I ran a 406 for years with stock crank rods 175 shot ran mid 10s. 4000 to 4500 stall, could go up a little on cam if you get closer to 4500 it will leave good on 200 shot.
Cheapest and most reliable. Take it from a guy that pissed away a bunch of time and a little money putting splayed caps on a factory 2 bolt 400 block for himself. (I own a machine shop) Add a few extra bucks to your budget and buy a Dart SHP block. It will allow you to achieve your goals without the worries of fretting the front and back caps, possibly splitting a bore, pulling head bolt threads, etc. Building a 12 sec engine, by all means use a stock block. Shooting for 10's? That's aftermarket block territory.
This sounds like a good plan. Don't build it to spin to the moon and that 150 shot should be just fine.
I know the stock 400 block has weaknesses, but we have a bunch running 9's and 10's with a 225 shot and not one block has had any problems. Now I just jinxed it
Our engine builder says no more than a 225shot on the stock block keeping it under 7000rpm.
Is a 350 block any better than a 400 block? Or what is the best production block. I know I probly should do an aftermarket bock but I was thinking about maybe just a nice N/A combo. I have a few months atleast before I can start buying parts but just trying to get a plan together so I can reserch everything about it to make it right. Thanks for the help
My buddy has a similar combo:
65 or 66 EL CO
421 sbc..dart block
10.5 to 1
Dart 215's
Vic Jr
HP 830
XR300HR....248/254 at .050
1 3/4 longtubes
3" exhaust
TH350...10" 3500 stall
12 bolt 4.10's
28" MT DR's
Car ran solid 11.55's at 114-115. With some tuning Im sure 11.4's will happen.
65 or 66 EL CO
421 sbc..dart block
10.5 to 1
Dart 215's
Vic Jr
HP 830
XR300HR....248/254 at .050
1 3/4 longtubes
3" exhaust
TH350...10" 3500 stall
12 bolt 4.10's
28" MT DR's
Car ran solid 11.55's at 114-115. With some tuning Im sure 11.4's will happen.
check out this post /build by site member "scotch", then apply some NOS if needed
Http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334874
Bill (88502)
Http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334874
Bill (88502)
Ok I think I'm coming back to reality. I don't think I can afford to run with the guys around here that have more money than me. Maybe I will just look at a N/A combo with decent parts and go for my original goal of 11.00s-11.50s I'm not going to do any competition I just want something fast and fun on the street and go to the track and be respectable. My car runs 12.20s with the mild 406 I have now and is a fun driver that's easy to maintane but I want to go faster with the new motor. I'm not trying to argue with any of you just realizing my budget and trying to have as much fun as I can afford. I know speed cost money and I don't have much so how about a 406 with scat 9000 crank and rods,SRP pistons,Dart 215 iron eagles,a solid flat tappet cam,victor JR,750DP,and 4000stall.I would think this would go well into the 11s based on the 406 I have now and hold up pretty well with no power adders.
Kevin.. I understand this myself.
If you go faster than 11.49, then a roll cage or roll bar is needed, there is a difference in the two.
That 12.20 406 motor could cut 3 to 4 tenths off with a 4500 to 5000 stall with a 60 foot time of 1.5 or better. Was the 12.20 with a small converter like 3500?
Now you might build a milder 406 with a less radical cam and spray it with that smaller converter and it will 60 better.
Say you build a 500 horspower N/A 383 with a 3500 stall and it is in a 3700 pound chevelle with 4:10 gears and 28 " tire ..your looking at 11.80s on the time slip.
Same motor, weight, and gears, with a racer stall like a 4500 to 5000 your looking at 11.40 to 11.50.
I think a N/A pump gas, solid roller 238 to 250 @ .050, and 285 to 300 cfm flowing heads between .400 and .650 with 11 to 1 compression will run 11.00 to 11.40's. Maybe get into the high 10's if you have less than 3700 pound car and get the 60's in 1.4's somehow.
Of course your powerband is very important....you tire and gear choice will dicate your rpms at the lights....again a 4:10, 28" tire will trap around 6200 to 6400 with a looser converter, maybe a tad higher. I think you need to focus your power from 6500 and below.
You may want to talk to people who have more experience than myself, like Chris Straub, Chad Spierer, Eric Wintergarden, Mike Lewis, Carl Hinson, UD Harold, and others.
Chris Straub has a really good hyd roller setup in Crazeydaveys 67 chevelle. Davey is running a stock bottom end 502 with a custom ground cam from Chris that is matched with some AFR heads....its all in the combo.
If you go faster than 11.49, then a roll cage or roll bar is needed, there is a difference in the two.
That 12.20 406 motor could cut 3 to 4 tenths off with a 4500 to 5000 stall with a 60 foot time of 1.5 or better. Was the 12.20 with a small converter like 3500?
Now you might build a milder 406 with a less radical cam and spray it with that smaller converter and it will 60 better.
Say you build a 500 horspower N/A 383 with a 3500 stall and it is in a 3700 pound chevelle with 4:10 gears and 28 " tire ..your looking at 11.80s on the time slip.
Same motor, weight, and gears, with a racer stall like a 4500 to 5000 your looking at 11.40 to 11.50.
I think a N/A pump gas, solid roller 238 to 250 @ .050, and 285 to 300 cfm flowing heads between .400 and .650 with 11 to 1 compression will run 11.00 to 11.40's. Maybe get into the high 10's if you have less than 3700 pound car and get the 60's in 1.4's somehow.
Of course your powerband is very important....you tire and gear choice will dicate your rpms at the lights....again a 4:10, 28" tire will trap around 6200 to 6400 with a looser converter, maybe a tad higher. I think you need to focus your power from 6500 and below.
You may want to talk to people who have more experience than myself, like Chris Straub, Chad Spierer, Eric Wintergarden, Mike Lewis, Carl Hinson, UD Harold, and others.
Chris Straub has a really good hyd roller setup in Crazeydaveys 67 chevelle. Davey is running a stock bottom end 502 with a custom ground cam from Chris that is matched with some AFR heads....its all in the combo.
Last season my little .040 over 350 ran a best of 11.553 @ 118.83 in good air. Ran 11.60's-70's all year. 64 Chevelle 3335# 12.9 comp. AFR 210 heads, super Victor w/750 dbl pumper,255/265 flat tappet solid w/.537 lift @.050 2.52 first gear 4 spd.,4.88 rear,28 x 9 Goodyear slicks, and a stock style pressure plate with a ceramic 6 puck disk.Drove it on the street, not a lot, but still it would function.
Made some changes over the winter, and hope to make 11.20's this year. Glass hood, bumper, alum. radiator, elect. waterpump-fans Tim Hyatt slipper clutch, inline shifter, fuel cell, and -8 lines. Haven't weighed it yet but hope to be at 3200#.
Four years ago it ran 13.00's with the same engine, so we've come a long way with basic tuning, suspension upgrades, tires, and practice. Still plan to street drive some, we will see how it behaves once the weather warms up. ONLY 18 DAYS 'TIL BYRON OPENS!!!
Made some changes over the winter, and hope to make 11.20's this year. Glass hood, bumper, alum. radiator, elect. waterpump-fans Tim Hyatt slipper clutch, inline shifter, fuel cell, and -8 lines. Haven't weighed it yet but hope to be at 3200#.
Four years ago it ran 13.00's with the same engine, so we've come a long way with basic tuning, suspension upgrades, tires, and practice. Still plan to street drive some, we will see how it behaves once the weather warms up. ONLY 18 DAYS 'TIL BYRON OPENS!!!
Dont need a huge budget to make a 10 second car with nitrous....
3650lbs is gonna make it abit more difficult but with a 406 sbc it wont be impossible. My 3450lb car ran 10.6's on a 150 shot with a 383 with stock AFR 195 eliminators and a hydraulic roller at 230 deg at .050 and .600 lift. EFI car that I could drive anywhere, and knock down mid 11's without much effort on motor and mid high 10's on spray in street suspension but on ET streets on seperate drag wheels.
My one friend's car has a 408sbc, using a 4.030 bore and 4" stroke...runs mid high 11's on motor with a 242 deg hydraulic roller, mid high .500s lift with AFR 195's. Ran 10.6-10.7's I believe at near 130 on a 150 hit. Carbed car around 3450 lbs or so as well.
My other buddy's car is a 406 sbc with a UDHarold solid roller and ported old style AFR 195's that now spec around 208cc and flow over 305cfm. Duration around 250 i believe. Car around 3400 as well. Ran 10.6 at 130 on motor thru a 6 speed and 9.8's at 142 on 175 hit. Nothing special to that bottom end. Cracked the factory 400 block after years of abuse but internals are fine. Just a mild rebuild with forged pistons and I believe stock crank. EFI car that knocks down 20mpg on the highway.
Any good head in the 200-220 cc range for that 406 with a decent roller grind will run mid low 11's at that 3650 or so lb raceweight.
3650lbs is gonna make it abit more difficult but with a 406 sbc it wont be impossible. My 3450lb car ran 10.6's on a 150 shot with a 383 with stock AFR 195 eliminators and a hydraulic roller at 230 deg at .050 and .600 lift. EFI car that I could drive anywhere, and knock down mid 11's without much effort on motor and mid high 10's on spray in street suspension but on ET streets on seperate drag wheels.
My one friend's car has a 408sbc, using a 4.030 bore and 4" stroke...runs mid high 11's on motor with a 242 deg hydraulic roller, mid high .500s lift with AFR 195's. Ran 10.6-10.7's I believe at near 130 on a 150 hit. Carbed car around 3450 lbs or so as well.
My other buddy's car is a 406 sbc with a UDHarold solid roller and ported old style AFR 195's that now spec around 208cc and flow over 305cfm. Duration around 250 i believe. Car around 3400 as well. Ran 10.6 at 130 on motor thru a 6 speed and 9.8's at 142 on 175 hit. Nothing special to that bottom end. Cracked the factory 400 block after years of abuse but internals are fine. Just a mild rebuild with forged pistons and I believe stock crank. EFI car that knocks down 20mpg on the highway.
Any good head in the 200-220 cc range for that 406 with a decent roller grind will run mid low 11's at that 3650 or so lb raceweight.
If you'd be happy with another 7 tenths quicker, and your current engine is fresh enough, pull the heads and have some expert port work done, then tune the rest of the combo. (slicks/stall/tuning) No need to build another complete engine if your current one is close to what will make you happy.
Well I asked a lot of questions about BBC combos all of the bbc guys were great and gave me a lot of info. After a lot of camparing I'm not sure I see the benefits.I have looked at the Pros and cons I think the only pros.Are factory bbc parts are stronger than sbc parts and endless poweer potential if you have endless funds. The cons are good heads are $2000 plus then everything else seems to be $20-200 more plus more weight on the nose and don't seem to get much milage. I geuss if you go way big you can make a lot of streetable HP but a SBC with a blower or NOS could run as well and still be an affordable driver. So I'm kinda back to looking at 383 and 406 combos I like the extra cubes of the 406 but is a stock 350 block any stronger for use with about a 150 shot. Thanks
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